0:02

Welcome to the Healthy Brain Toolbox. I'm Dr. Ken Sharlin, neurologist, speaker, author, and host for this show. In each episode, I interview influential people whose work impacts how we live and how we think. My guests are leaders in the health and fitness industry, physicians, scientists. Authors and public servants. Here, you'll find conversations that break down barriers, expand your horizons, and give you the tools you need to protect your health and nourish your aging brain.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 0:40

Today's episode I have a friend and colleague, Jordan Hamlin. She is a Neuronic consultant who is collaborated with a team of experts to advise personalized photobiomodulation protocols for individuals with a variety of symptoms related to conditions such as Parkinson's, dementia, including Alzheimer's, Multiple Sclerosis, and more. Jordan is board certified by the BCIA. That's the Biofeedback Certification International Alliance, and a certified coach in HeartMath, which we love too. Maybe we'll do another show in HeartMath for heart rate variability. Jordan has significant hands-on experience from her time working as a neurofeedback technician at a mental health clinic in Asheville, North Carolina, where she coached clients ranging from ages 5 to 85 with conditions such as traumatic brain injury, neurodegeneration and other traumas beside TBI. Her dedication to clients is evident throughout her holistic approach, considering the entire well-being of each individual. She holds a bachelor's degree in psychology from Georgia State University, go Bulldogs, right? With additional education in health topics. Her eight years of direct client work had provided her with a well-rounded perspective on holistic treatment. During the pandemic, she discovered the benefits of light therapy and personally used it to heal from gut issues caused by black mold exposure. This led her to stunning visual light stimulation effects with a local provider. Her passion for this technology led her. To a role at Neuronic, N-E-U-R-O-N-I-C, for those who wanna write that down, where she continues to explore and advocate for its revolutionary benefits. Jordan, as usual as always welcome. It's so great to connect with you today.

Jordan Hamlin: 2:54

Thank you so much. It's great to see you, Dr. Sharlin.

COMMERCIAL BREAK: 3:04

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Dr. Ken Sharlin: 4:56

We've had multiple conversations. I've really enjoyed working with Jordan and we're getting ready to start a study looking at apathy and Parkinson's disease. With this technology. The listeners or viewers of the podcast may not know a lot about photo biomodulation, so we're gonna really break that down from and take'em back to basics and then build it back up. But I wanted to start off Jordan, if it's okay, it may just take a minute or two, but I went on to perplexity right before I started the show and I said, give me the top 10 most interesting in the research literature and a one sentence synopsis of that paper just to see organically, what came up. I'm not gonna read all 10, but I think it really hits home how, not only fascinating but important and really potentially efficacious this. I'll say the word treatment. This approach is here's just some references we can always put'em in the show notes. The beneficial role of photobiomodulation in neurodegenerative diseases reduces amyloid plaques that's associated with Alzheimer's, increases brain derived neurotrophic factor production, and protects Neuronics that's programmed cell death, supporting its therapeutic potential in Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and traumatic brain injury, modifying Alzheimer's disease, pathophysiology with photobiomodulation evidence and future with EG guided intervention. We'll want to talk a little bit about that, including mitochondrial dysfunction fighting inflammation and synaptic law, showing improvements in memory and cognition. Photobiomodulation treatment enhances and sustains neurogenesis. That's how the brain actually. Births, if you will, new brain cells following acute ischemic stroke. Imagine that you had a tool that could potentially allow you to grow new brain cells. Promotes neurogenesis, improves motor and sensory function, and activates BDNF slash TrkB pathways supporting functional recovery after ischemic stroke, future directions, paper demonstrating again, an anti-apoptotic, anti-inflammatory. Oxidative stress effects, antioxidative, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, depression, stroke, traumatic brain injury. We don't have one pill out there, one drug that does all these different things. Again, I could go on, but I hope the folks following this are wowed already about the potential for photobiomodulation and neurological disease and brain health. Let's just start off with breaking it down and tell me, tell us what photobiomodulation is, what it involves, and even a little bit about Neuronic and how it's positioned in the photobiomodulation field.

Jordan Hamlin: 8:05

Absolutely. So starting with the basics of photobiomodulation, this is really looking at the impact of light on the body and its normal cellular processes. So especially at most of the time when we talk about photobiomodulation, we're typically referring to red and near infrared light. So things that are, a little further on that visible spectrum and into the invisible spectrum. What we found with using an infrared light, which is something that we naturally get from the sun anyway, but being indoors, we get a lot less of it. Once you can supplement this with some type of photobiomodulation device, we see there being a reduction in inflammation, whether it's. On the body or in the brain. We're seeing an increase in blood flow and just general increased cellular health shown by increased activity. So it's a lot of different things that it can end up working with. Since we're really looking at this cellular health level. At Neuronic, we particularly chose the 10-70 nanometer range. It's just chosen because it has slightly less absorption rate, but therefore can penetrate deeper into the brain so we can really make some of these fundamental changes at that root cause. So that's where we chose that 10-70 nanometers. And we have a full helmet that we did so that we could cover the entire head, trying to get as much possible support to every area that we can.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 9:31

Okay and when I go to the big meetings and they have a big exposition hall, and there are various sponsors of the meeting, there are other folks out there. And I say this because I personally love this particular product, I love this particular brand. But it's confusing I think to folks who see this and we are sometimes rather pocketbook minded, if you will, and say here's one for$300. Here's one for$1,200, here's one for$2,000. How do folks ultimately make it through all of that information? Ultimately to find to identify a product that truly moves the mark for them, not just saves them a penny or two on the cost of the unit. Because if, even if you spend three or$500 and you don't get any results, that's three or$500. That's down the drain.

Jordan Hamlin: 10:26

Exactly. Yeah. There's a couple of things involved. First is looking at what the actual light is itself. So as I mentioned that we're in that 10-70 nanometers. You really need to. Be into that infrared light range to be able to penetrate through our skull, through the meninges to reach even the brain tissue. So a lot of these devices out there are mostly red light devices, which are much more intended for hair growth, but a lot less so for being able to penetrate to the brain. So knowing about what kind of frequencies you're looking for is definitely one of the important things. The other one is you wanna get a product that has high testing that's being done with it, using multiple different measurements and having different types of parties who are looking at it.'cause a lot of these devices aren't really even doing what they're saying either they're not in that infrared range. Like they say that they are. Or they're not strong enough to be able to impact the body. So it is important to really look into what kind of research does this, particular product show. And especially at Neuronic, we're really big on that transparency. You can find all of our specs on the website. We've done a video to break it down. We have a blog to break it down further. We're trying to make it, people feel as informed as possible when they make a choice like this.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 11:45

So let's take a dive into some of the benefits then of transcranial photobiomodulation. And I know I went through it rather quickly in the intro, but perhaps we can look at this in a little bit more detail. The helmet itself is FDA cleared? Correct.

Jordan Hamlin: 12:06

It is not the overall, photobiomodulation is typically classified in the wellness range, so once you're using LEDs instead of laser lights, that risk for any potential harm is mitigated to where they consider us a wellness device.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 12:20

So in other words, what I'm saying is that it's approved, it's usable as a wellness device. It, we can't technically make disease claims Neuronic can't say My helmet has been proven to treat someone with Parkinson's disease. However, there is a body of literature. In which individual studies have been performed that have shown benefit by those researcher who's have, who have done the studies. So we're gonna, I'm couching all of this to say. As we talk about this, I wanna be clear that this is coming from me. That Neuronic is not that Jordan is, as a representative of this company, is not going to necessarily tell you that this is a proven treatment of their product. But the science is there. The science is there, and we encourage folks to check out the science as we dive into all of this. Before we even get to talking about diseases, maybe we can talk about things more at the cellular and subcellular level. So I put this helmet on and I have a couple helmets here in my office. I thought, oh, I should have grabbed one and had it in front of me, and perhaps I'll step away from the camera in a bit and grab it and, folks could bear with me being away from the camera for a minute so I can show you what it looks like or if you have one there. But I'm gonna put this on. There you go. So you've saved me the trouble. And and it looks pretty cool. It looks a little bit intimidating there. But anyway and it's gonna emit this light, and this light is going to penetrate the skull. How far does it get?

Jordan Hamlin: 14:00

So especially with that 10-70 nanometers, we think we can get at least a couple of centimeters into the skull so that you're really able to reach that brain tissue.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 14:10

So we're talking about 10 centimeters. That's pretty, pretty far. Really that's 5-6 inches roughly. So that's pretty impressive. So we're, we're clearly beyond the skull, the cerebral spinal fluid, the meningeal layer. We've actually penetrated the cortex of the brain or into the white matter of the brain, possibly some of the deeper gray matter structures, which would be quite relevant for things like Parkinson's disease, where we're looking at the basal ganglia. And it's not and it's bathing the cells in this light, but it's penetrating the cells, it's penetrating the cell membrane, and it's getting to different structures within the cell. So can you talk a little bit about some of the activity at the cellular level.

Jordan Hamlin: 14:55

Absolutely. Yes. So really in that infrared and red and infrared light range, then we're helping to support the fourth cycle of the respiration cycle of the cell. So promoting more of this ATP production, ultimately it's interacting with the cytochrome C oxidase, which is inside of the mitochondria, and this is what pushes that ATP to be released from it. Ultimately once we have ATP moving through the body, you can find these areas that might be, locked up with nitric oxide, something that might have, damage to it, whether it was an injury or illness. And we have this mass amount of inflammation that's coming in blocking these pathways. The ATP can be really helpful for helping release this. We're getting more of that blood flow to be able to move through the brain. We're also seeing that increase of nitric oxide as the more oxygen is able to be delivered to cells. So this is really one of the main principles that happens, but there's obviously downstream effects that come from this. Which include those things like stimulating the BDNF and having a neural protective factor just from having more of this oxygenation. Quite a few different things.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 16:09

So we talk about inflammation, that chronic inflammation is a catch raise. Of course it's a real thing, but it's when we, in the sort of the blogosphere and the podcast, chronic inflammation is the main thing that a lot of folks focus in on when it comes to understanding why we get sick. And there are many things that are anti-inflammatory, but this is one of them.

Jordan Hamlin: 16:31

Absolutely. Yeah. And this is a huge one to be able to have and a lot of times it's not like we know that there's this inflammation there until it's been there long enough we have some severe issue. You don't feel the inflammation may be necessarily. So having something that's supporting it, whether you know that it's there or not, is a really important thing.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 16:51

And then it has some effects on what's called oxidative stress. Now, when I explain this to my patients, we talk a lot about oxidative stress. They say, look, we breathe air. And your lungs extract the oxygen from the air you breathe and your red blood cells carry that oxygen to all the tissues in your body where the cells take up that oxygen. It's taken into those mitochondria, the little batteries of the cell, if you will, where oxygen is combined with some other energy substrate like glucose or fat. We love to talk about ketogenic diets and things like that but ultimately producing that ATP and that's what we want. But in the end, just like a car, the combustion of gasoline causes byproducts like carbon monoxide and so forth. In this case, we get compounds that have an oxygen molecule associated with them, like superoxide and peroxides. Within that molecule, the electrons that go around the atom there is an unpaired electron because the electrons like to be in pairs. There's an unpaired electron, and when that, compound or molecule is floating around in the milieu that is the cell. It wants to steal electrons from other things, and if that's your DNA or your mitochondria, that may result in DNA damage or mitochondrial damage. So antioxidants in general are electron donors. They are willing to give up an electron to be the bucket of water on the fire. That is oxidative stress now. Photobiomodulation appears to have an antioxidant effect as well. Can you, are you able to talk a little bit about that and how that occurs or what's happening there?

Jordan Hamlin: 18:39

Just to be sure, we are talking about ROS or was that not what you were getting at? Sorry. Are you talking about reactive oxygen species?

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 18:50

Does it reduce oxidative stress? Inside this? Yes.

Jordan Hamlin: 18:56

So that's one of the huge mechanisms of all of this is reducing that oxidative stress. Part of it is that we're actually trying to stress the body just enough so that we elicit these responses without pushing it over the edge. Getting sick will cause these responses, inflammatory responses in the body as things are sending out to be able to heal us. This is something we're trying to slightly evoke with the light without pushing it over the edge to be sick or anything like that. So we're really working to work out the immune system of the body. And what we're seeing too with it is that these cytokines, which are inflammatory to protect us, but maybe they're lasting around a little too long, we're seeing them being changed into the anti-inflammatory cytokines. So you're getting another promotion of that blood flow more oxygenation of the cells through this anti-inflammatory immune response.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 19:51

Nice. The other mechanisms that came up as I went through these paper titles include things like anti-apoptosis. So in other words, it's. There's this process that's called Programmed Cell death. And in a sense that is neurodegeneration, that's the loss of cells. That becomes anything from, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, ALS, Huntington's Disease and so forth. As the brain shrinks or atrophies, that is a result of apoptosis. I always say that, it takes me back to my Star Trek days. I was a huge Star Trek fan growing up and if the enterprise was, under attack, it had various defenses. It's force fields and photon torpedoes and all that stuff. And our cells have various levels of defense and things that they can do to try to ward off the effects of say, chronic inflammation and oxidative stress. But if all else fails, the final. Act to perhaps not necessarily save the enterprise, but maybe save the cruise sa protect the technology itself from getting into the hands of the clingons. Keeping the Star Trek theme going was to press the red button, right? That's under the plexiglass, cover and then of course, the Starship blows up and yes, it's gone. But on the other hand, the precious cargo, the di lithium crystals or whatever, don't get into the hands of the enemy. I talk about in the clinic that we often think of disease are really adaptive responses of the body and apoptosis essentially. I put into that bucket that we certainly don't. Necessarily want to program cell death, although in certain cases it may be really to our advantage to have that feature of life available, especially if it comes to things like, oh, killing cancer cells. But it seems that directly or indirectly, photobiomodulation may have some anti apoptosis effect as well.

Jordan Hamlin: 22:02

Yes, absolutely. So one of the things that they've shown is that, when you start having this inflammation and we're having this chronic, inflammation that's. Showing up with a lot of these, progressive neurodegenerative diseases. Then the macrophages are actually flipping in polarity to an inflammatory M2 type is what it's called. This is where you start getting that buildup and this leads to that cell death ultimately, which again, is a protective thing. But not when it starts getting out of hand. What they've shown with the, red and near infrared light is that it actually flips these macrophages back to M1, which is the anti-inflammatory kind. This is what can allow for breaking up these sort of panic states that these inflammatory responses have gotten into and can now help to start removing some of these issues that have caused these blockages.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 22:56

So let's say just as we ease into neurodegenerative disorders, maybe I'm just a, like a biohacker and I wanna do everything I can to support the health of my brain I know I'm just turning I'll be 61 this year. I hope I get to live a lot longer. I won't be here forever, but I wanna live out my life the best that I can, right? I wanna be healthy. I want to be active, vibrant I don't wanna lose my memory, but preserve my body. If I were to just start using this device, are there things that I might notice, even if I say don't have Alzheimer's or Parkinson's?

COMMERCIAL BREAK: 23:34

Now it's time for a short commercial breaks. Imagine a future where brain health is not just managed, but optimized, where the symptoms of Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, traumatic brain injury, stroke, depression, anxiety, and even long COVID can be addressed with cutting edge technology. That future is here with the Neuronic Light and the Neuronic 1070 nanometer. Photobiomodulation helmets a breakthrough in noninvasive brain therapy using near infrared light. These devices penetrate deep into brain tissue, stimulating cellular repair, reducing inflammation, and enhancing mitochondrial function. Research suggests this technology can even enhance cognitive performance in healthy individuals all without drugs. Or invasive procedures. The Neuronic 1070 helmet takes it further, offering four customizable operating quadrants. Ideal for tailoring programs and conditions like stroke or traumatic brain injury. And with every 1070 helmet, you'll receive a free 30 minute brain health consultation to help you maximize. The benefits. Whether you want to support memory, restore energy, or take proactive control of your brain health. Neuronic technology could be the game changer you've been waiting for. Unlock the power of light, heal, restore, thrive. Learn more at Neuronic. Online and when you make that investment, be sure to use the code Sharlin100 with a capital S to get your$100 discount and let Neuronic know where you heard about this valuable technology.

Jordan Hamlin: 25:35

Absolutely. Yeah, so there's a couple of things. Usually the first thing is people know that they feel more energy throughout the day, and that being, not just the physical energy, but mental energy to get through your daily task. Also, often people do report that they feel like they're sleeping better, so getting more quality sleep and having a more regular schedule with it. Those are two of the first things that people tend to notice. But past that we also see improvements in mood overall improvements in cognitive efficiencies, so getting done with all of your tasks throughout the day and also with mood regulations. So just keeping things a little bit more even keel as you go through lives, which can just be stressful being a human.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 26:19

What if I do that and I want to what kind of commitment? am I making to the technology itself? In other words, gosh, I'm already busy. I work, we've got, family, I've got pets, I've got whatever. How am I gonna fit that into my daily routine? What kind of commitment does it take just to use the device?

Jordan Hamlin: 26:40

Absolutely. So typically people are doing sessions anywhere from 10 minutes to 30 minutes, and it's really personal about what's best for you, but it's not something where you feel like you have to do this. Hour long sessions or any of this, it's actually a quite quick thing, and as long as you're getting in something, it's better than nothing. A lot of times people are doing this, maybe in the morning when you're getting up, either having some coffee or maybe checking through emails. Something that you're already doing in your day. You can just have the helmet on at the same time. So it's not something where you have to totally step away from the rest of your task. You can be multitasking with it. Also, having it in the evening, I think it's a very good thing for people to get off work and have a committed time to just sitting down for 10 minutes and doing a session, I'd be having some breathing, having that shift from work. Now we're into the rest of our life, but 10 minutes is something people can typically find. We scroll on our phones longer than that most of the time.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 27:40

Of course, I guess you could scroll on your phone and still wear your helmet, but hopefully you'll do something much more mindful or at least more valuable than scrolling on the phone.

Jordan Hamlin: 27:51

yes.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 27:52

yes, you're right. One of your coworkers mentioned that actually it is important to dose this properly, that potentially you could use it too much. That there would be some downsides, if I wanted to went crazy, like if a little is good, more must be better. And I wear it two hours every day. What are some of the, are there any warnings or precautions about using it? I'll use the term excessively, but we can certainly define what that is.

Jordan Hamlin: 28:21

Absolutely. So it works on the biophasic dose response. So with too little you might get some benefit, but it won't be quite as much with too much. You negate those positive benefits. This doesn't mean that there's something really harmful. You're not melting your brain tissue or any of those things, but rather we've just gone past the point of getting the benefit that you're looking for. So looking for that sweet spot, it's we typically start out with any of our preset protocols. Those are usually the most easily tolerated by people, and then you can start increasing that time slowly and seeing where your maximum is. Usually people note their maximum because they might feel a slight headache or they might feel slightly fatigued. Those are the most common side effects.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 29:06

Now the helmet itself though, does it produce, heat? Or would I be worried about, even being burned by this sort of thing, or is there anything I should know about? So I put this on my head just from a comfort perspective.

Jordan Hamlin: 29:23

We use LEDs instead of lasers, so it's a lot less of a heating factor than if had just a high power laser that's being placed on your head. Being with the LEDs, we also take this approach of, more coverage on the head and therefore less power ultimately, that you need to have the same amount of dosage. So it's a really low risk of it. Some people do. Port that they note it, feeling a little warm while they're using it, but not anything that's uncomfortable. No, it's a really forgiving technology,

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 29:54

Do I need to protect my eyes in any way?

Jordan Hamlin: 29:57

not while using our helmet, it comes nowhere near the eyes at all. So you shouldn't have any issue with that.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 30:03

Great. Great. And again, before we get into some of this sort of potential roles in treating diseases. Are there any other precautions or even contraindications? Is there an individual sort of profile that maybe that's not right for you?

Jordan Hamlin: 30:20

Yeah, we always recommend if people have active cancer, you wanna take a little more precaution solely because it can promote angiogenesis, which can be a good thing for a lot of people, but not necessarily for tumors. So especially if there's anything like brain cancer, we do recommend that people take more precaution with that. Otherwise, we look at just metal being implanted in the head, or unintentionally implanted anything outside of titanium, there is a chance for that to be heated up into the brain. So we do recommend if you have metal implanted to avoid it. Otherwise, it's just precautions of general caution that, kind of everything I think revolves around, like with pregnancy, we always recommend just taking extra precaution for that.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 31:04

But no known risks for pregnancy at

Jordan Hamlin: 31:07

Not at all. We've had plenty of pregnant people who've been using it. We just always wanna protect any mother and to the most that we can.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 31:16

In the folks that work with me, the one group that could have metal in their head, I'm just curious if you've seen any data, are the folks with Parkinson's or essential tremor. There are some other situations, but those would be the most common who have wires implanted in the brain for deep brain stimulation. Have you seen any data combining PBM with deep brain stimulation?

Jordan Hamlin: 31:42

I haven't, although I think there will be ones that come out. We do have a clinic who's presently working with deep Brain Stimulation out in Colorado right now. I. They've been using our 10-70 helmet, which is our older version, and just having the person turn off the side that was on for the deep brain stimulation and then only stimulating that side. I think for any of those, just taking extra caution to start off slower.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 32:08

So you necessarily have any concern about actually heating up that lead or, otherwise your...

Jordan Hamlin: 32:14

I think it's good always to take any caution with it. Especially, being outside of the medical field, it's always a good thing to take extra cautions, but at least we know of people who are using it right now.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 32:26

Now another group that could have technology actually in the head or in the brain, but I'm even thinking more broadly just in terms of any precaution is are there any concerns about people who might have epileptic seizures and then put this on their head?

Jordan Hamlin: 32:42

No, there's actually some good studies that have come out about it being supportive, something that can be helpful for reducing the number of seizures, but also providing some support for the health, but a protective factor too, for future ones as well. No, it doesn't seem to be anything that, that people can't use it if they have epilepsy.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 33:01

Wonderful. Potential role for epilepsy, possibly improving seizure control, then. And then folks who do suffer from seizures may have other, I'll just say side effects, either from their medication, from the condition that has led to them having seizures in the first place or just from having recurrent seizures. And that is, cognitive impairment can be a part of epilepsy and this is a way to maybe have a little hedge against cognitive impairment or improve cognitive impairment in epilepsy.

Jordan Hamlin: 33:34

Absolutely. The neural protective factor, again, is something you might not feel while you're using the helmet, but we know and have shown in studies over and over again that it's there.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 33:44

How about some of the other conditions we've touched on? Can you share any studies that you're aware of Alzheimer's or Parkinson's or Ms.

Jordan Hamlin: 33:54

Absolutely. Especially Alzheimer's is easily the most researched condition in this field. So they've done studies with looking at more progressed states of. Decline. And they've shown reports that, people are having more improved mood, they're sleeping better. Some people are doing some of the things that they had stopped doing, like being able to feed themselves or putting on their coats. So we're seeing some of these, behavioral shifts. That are coming about, but there's also been studies that they've done with both mild cognitive impairment and subjective cognitive impairment and doing just seven sessions with these individuals have shown massive increases on their cognitive performances. So it's really amazing to see that you get some benefits at both sides of this, but also seeing that you definitely get, a lot more benefit the earlier that you're starting to do something.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 34:47

And then it does appear that photobiomodulation has an effect on what I'll call the neuropathology of the disease. Self and reducing the burden of beta amyloid plaque, which accumulates in the context of, an increased inflammatory signals.

Jordan Hamlin: 35:04

Yeah, exactly. They have, and what's really interesting is something you'll see pretty frequently is this 40 hertz pulse rate. You'll see it in visual lights for different ones, and also we have it included with our helmet and a lot of the other devices that are out there. We'll include this as well, but there's this question of why 40 hertz? They actually did a study recently and they showed that one of the issues is when you disrupt the immune system in the brain, then you can get this sort of flood that comes in and that ends up being toxic as well. Using the 40 hertz specifically was directing these macrophages specifically to these tangles and blocked areas in the brain without overloading it with the immune response, which I think is just so fascinating.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 35:51

Wow. For folks affected by diseases like multiple sclerosis. two of the key. Outcome measures that are frequently looked at from a clinical perspective and say drug trials for what are called disease modifying therapies for ms. Are relapse rate as well as sustained disability progression, meaning that sometimes with MS people just get worse progressively and their ability to walk or other functions and that doesn't improve. And thus the deterioration that is associated with MS has there, have there. Spend any studies to your knowledge looking at, say, reductions in relapse rate or less disability progression over time.

Jordan Hamlin: 36:35

There haven't been yet. And I really hope that there will be some soon for looking at that, like you said, the longer term of it, because we do see that, people seem to have at least fewer of these sort of like setback relapses, they're having more consistency in their day to day instead of that sort of, let's just see what's gonna happen today. But yeah, there are not any long-term studies yet and so I, I really hope that's coming up in the next couple years.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 37:00

Yes. And then my patients as one did yesterday, they are looking for that. Special something. I'll just say it that way. You know that magic pill, injection, whatever, that actually promotes remyelination in the brain, reversal of the changes that are seen on say MRI for those suffering from Alzheimer's disease. And we. Don't exactly have drugs that are specifically targeting remyelination, although I do tell them that, look, when you get the brain out of that attack mode more into just that general repair mode, overall, the parasympathetic, rest and digest, if you will, then it does give the brain. Opportunity to repair damaged tissue. But I wonder if there's any literature any changes on MRI with photobiomodulation.

Jordan Hamlin: 37:59

Yes, it's limited with humans. Still, and I think again, that's hopefully what's coming more moving forward. I think the animal studies are all really promising. We're seeing this, regrowth that's happening and these changes, but we really need more of these human studies to start confirming this.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 38:15

Absolutely. I get a lot of questions because we are in the, I am in the research arena as well, and folks are getting of course on now, on ai. Previously just using Google, I had a patient ask me about a company that has. A research investigational product that is essentially a gold nanoparticle that has shown a lot of promise in things like MS, ALS and so forth. But I do, these aren't approved treatments and I think it's important that you're saying that, just because something is shown to be effective in a mouse doesn't necessarily mean that it's effective in a human being. But on the other hand, if I am going to, I'll just say this personally, if I'm going to take a chance, as it were, I'm not sure I would wanna put an investigational drug in my body that hadn't been. At least reasonably well researched, at least through a phase two trial that does. At least look at safety to a degree, safety and tolerability. Before I put a drug in my body, but we're saying that at least with photobiomodulation, there's really no evidence of harm. If you want to experiment, on yourself. And there's science to back it up. And in the sort of pros and cons column, there's really no evidence of any kind of harm that is a consequence of using photo biomodulation. Then it may be well, worth exploring.

Jordan Hamlin: 39:42

Absolutely. And there's many studies that have looked at the safety of it, so we definitely have that information to be able to fall back on. But yeah, I think it's well worth it to be trying, because at least you know there's something supporting cellular health already, and we know that there's a neuroprotective aspect, so it's worthwhile to be trying.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 40:03

Now as we start to get toward the end of our interview, I do want to touch on something you and I have spoken about quite a bit, and I know you're very passionate about, and that is the role of QEEG in photobiomodulation and how. The information from QEEG is used to personalize the use of photobiomodulation on an individual level. So I wonder if you could give an overview of that and it explain a little bit about what QEEG is. I'm sure we'll have other podcasts on dedicated to QEEG. But I want folks to have a little bit of, an understanding of what we're talking about and why this could be important for them and that this is to be clear, something that neuro. Can help you with so that if you do invest in one of these helmets that you are really getting an experience is truly personalized for your needs.

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Jordan Hamlin: 42:45

Absolutely. Yeah. So the QEEG is essentially looking at an EEG or electroencephalogram, which is found from looking at the electrical signals from the brain. So most of the time it's. Stunned using a cap that has these leads in it and they'll stick it on your head and do at least in eyes open and an eyes closed recording. From that data. We can use mathematical models to make it into images that provide us some deeper understanding about what we're seeing in the brain. So what can be really helpful is, somebody might say that they have some issue with memory. Memory is a pretty complicated network in the brain that there's a lot of different ways that you can access it and get to it. There's multiple pathways, so it could be something like Alzheimer's where we're just seeing this atrophy, but it could be something else that's going on. Being able to look at the EEG, we can see in this, temporal resolution, really how things are working independently and with each other in the brain. To get a better sense of where things might be getting off track from that we can program into the device a specific program that's targeted towards supporting these different functions, whether that's decreasing inflammation or encouraging greater connectivity. So we see that yeah, people get a lot of benefit from this, especially if you. Haven't had a lot of answers about what's going on. We don't really have a specific diagnosis maybe, or you do, but it's a vague one. It can be really helpful having this image of the brain to really understand, okay at least we can see how things are connecting and functionally I.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 44:27

Now if I go to the neuro website, you have two main products, two helmets, the put older, the original, the neuro 10-70, and now the neuro light. There is a significant difference in cost. And if I were to be confused about the two and I'm open to getting either one in the end, I want the one that's really gonna help me the most. Can you explain a little bit about the difference between them?

Jordan Hamlin: 44:55

Absolutely. So for the majority of people especially, we're looking at. Biohackers or people who are just trying to maintain their health. Especially the younger that someone is generally the light device, which is L-I-G-H-T and actually the name of the device, just to clarify is a better option for it. It only has an option to do the whole head at the same time, but in general, if you don't have another health issue that's really going on. It's not that big of a deal to get something that's more targeted. So for the majority of people, I recommend the light. I also recommend the light for people who are interested in a more simple version overall, if you just want something that simply can plug in and turn on and run the programs. It's a way better option for that. On the other hand, we do have the 10-70, which is what I started out working with. This does have four quadrant control, so it allows for that more tailoring. This can be really helpful for people that have a lot more sensitivities. They might be more. Reactive to different interventions. This could be an easier way to go Also for specific injuries, particularly, maybe if somebody's just hit one side of their head versus another, it could be more helpful to have a targeted response. And it's also a great option, obviously, for any clinicians who are working with a wide variety of a population. The 10-70 is gonna give you a lot more customizability.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 46:19

So both are programmable. The 10-70 is just, four quadrants. Just think of a tic tac toe. Board or whatever that you've got four areas, maybe not exactly tic-tac-toe, you get what I'm trying to say. A horizontal line and a vertical line going across the head, front to back, side to side, I take it. And then if you had an area that was particularly damaged, like from a stroke, you might be able to then program the helmet. To target tissue in that specific area in a different way than you might target tissue on the other side of the brain. But on the other hand, unless you have those sort of focal abnormalities, the light helmet is gonna serve you very well either can be used with A QEEG, one. Although the light helmet obviously a little more specific. I'm sorry, the 10-70, a little more specific. Now again folks, if you're interested in this, I definitely want you to do your homework. Check out the Neuronic website that they can help you to arrange for AQEEG. And then with that information sent to someone like Jordan, you might work directly with her. The, she will then help you to program that helmet and honestly it's worth a few extra dollars. That's what I tell all my patients to do. Yes, these helmets do have some preset built-in programs, but I think it's so important to personalize and individualize your experience. Get the QEEG. The other nice thing about it is. By the time you've used this three or six months we're saying you probably will be noticing a difference, but it's awfully nice to have some objective measure. A measuring stick that says yes, there really are changes in the brain. So if you get that QEEG at baseline, you can repeat the QEEG at a given interval and you can not only see improvements, but then that. Updated, if you will, QEEG could then be used to further fine tune the helmet programming as you move forward on your journey.

Jordan Hamlin: 48:27

Exactly. As you start seeing where things are moving now and where else we can start to target. So it's a great tool for having that measurement.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 48:36

Wonderful. Folks this has been a terrific conversation. I really appreciate Jordan coming on and it, being a great explainer if you are interested in purchasing a helmet. Neuronic has been very gracious to me. We do have a code, which is SHARLIN 100, so S-H-A-R-L-I-N 100. I'll give you a little discount on the helmet if you should purchase it. Take advantage of, their customer service, give'em a call, discuss it. This isn't this is really meant to be informative. And we want you to definitely learn as much as you can and, make sure the purchase of the helmet is truly right for you and that you're excited about using it and getting the benefits it has to offer. They do have a money back guarantee, which I think is really bold. If you're not seeing improvements within three months, you can send it back, get your money back. I will say, I asked a couple of the folks in, how many people actually return that helmet and they said I. Honestly, our return rate's only about 3%. Something along those lines. So that that says a lot right there to me. But it does give folks the confidence that if they are making this investment, they're eager, they're gonna get benefit. Or if they by chance don't, they really haven't lost anything, they can send it back. So any last thoughts Jordan to offer folks? Any, anything we've left on the table.

Jordan Hamlin: 50:00

No, I think this has been great. I think this is, such a great tool for anybody at any age and. Sooner that you do things, the better the outcome, but definitely recommend giving this a try.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 50:12

Are you aware of any are you guys doing any studies where you're inviting folks? I know, like I just purchased an Oura ring for myself and now I can I get these emails saying, Hey. We're doing a study, if you're interested in our participating to learn more about sleep. Are you guys sponsoring any studies where if somebody was interested, they could potentially be a part of that?

Jordan Hamlin: 50:35

So right now we're actually wrapping up our mild cognitive impairment and early dementia study. We have fully recruited for that one, but since we're wrapping this one up, we should be recruiting for our next one soon. So I recommend if people just go to our website, we do have a list of any of the ongoing trials, whether it's us internally or external partners we're working with. But we'll also be announcing our next study once we get that rolling.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 50:59

That's great. And so many websites are.com. So I do wanna remind folks that neuro took the bold step of being neuronic.online. So if you're looking for Neuronic, any N-E-U-R-O-N-I-C, it's dot online. But I'm sure you could find it with any Google search window as well. Jordan it's so much fun to chat with you and I'm again looking forward to our next visit. She and I folks again are working on a study looking at apathy in Parkinson's. It's such a huge problem in the world of integrative neurology because any kind of integrative medicine really asks folks to be very much a part of their own care plan, right? They're taking steps to change their diet, move their body, work on stress, take a few supplements here and there, things like that. And, it, if you can't get off the sofa, it's pretty hard to do all those other things. And unfortunately, one of the most prominent non-motor symptoms of Parkinson's is this sense of apathy. It's very, very flat affect, very, lack of motivation, lack of drive. A lot of that drive comes from the dopamine in the brain and what with the dopamine loss. It's a very natural consequence. And unfortunately, there are no approved treatments right now for this very big problem. Certainly not the study is not large enough to seek some sort of FDA indication. We hope to show that photo biomodulation is a really good choice for those who suffer from that aspect of the disease. And hopefully by using photo biomodulation, they will not only have less apathy, but there'll be much more engagement and folks in the end will feel like they have their lives back.

Jordan Hamlin: 52:46

Yes. Yes, exactly. I'm really looking forward to starting this study.

Dr. Ken Sharlin: 52:51

Jordan Hamlin from Neuronic, thank you so much for being part of the Healthy Brain Toolbox and hey, we'll see you soon.

Jordan Hamlin: 52:59

thank you so much for having me.

53:04

Hi everyone. Dr. Ken Sharlin here with the Healthy Brain Toolbox. I'd love to hear from you. If you have general questions about brain health, neurology, or the science of keeping your brain sharp. Send them to questions@healthybraintoolbox.com. I'll be reading your questions on the upcoming episodes. Please remember, these need to be general questions, can't answer personal medical questions, or provide individual medical advice. So if you've ever wondered about brain health strategies, lifestyle tips, new research, or the future of neuroscience, send those questions in. I look forward to hearing from you and who knows? You might even hear your question featured on the show. Thank you for tuning into the Healthy Brain Toolbox podcast. I hope today's conversation gave you new insights to protect and nourish your brain. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share this episode with anyone looking to take control of their health. Until next time, stay sharp and keep learning.